Some of you may have read the post I made about Ivan when we were at the Emergency Vet and my friend [not meaning any harm] pulled Ivan’s legs as he was lying down. Ivan reared up suddenly and vocalized, grabbing my friend’s arm firmly, but not enough to break the skin. For me, it was SCARY, because I didn’t know what happened, if he was attacking [he wasn’t] and my heart was pounding. Also, in March, where I used to live, my roommates had three dogs. They brought another dog home and the three attacked her, blood flying on the walls, terrifying sounds, etc. I couldn’t sit and watch those dogs kill her and it may have been stupid, but I started pulling them off by the legs, so I would not have to reach in between biting mouths for a collar. Of course two of the three turned on me and dragged me to the floor, biting through my boots and jeans.
I still haven’t really recovered emotionally from that [one of the dogs that bit me was shot] so the thought that Ivan might bite initially freaked me out. But then I realized it was a warning…about what…I’m not sure.
Then tonight, it happened to me. I was sitting next to Ivan while he was sleeping, and just barely shifted my weight. I have no idea what part of him was touched but he arched up. I never felt his teeth, but it was the same type of thing. [The most got was slobber.]
Any thoughts on figuring this out? At the vet today [yes, I got a third opinion…and this vet actually found hookworms!] he allowed the vet to manipulate his knees and hips without protest.
It sounds like you might have just startled him from his sleep. A lot of dogs don’t like to be disturbed when their sleeping and given what Ivan has been through it is not surprising that his first instinct would be to warn off whomever is disturbing him (shoot first, ask questions later). The fact that he didn’t sink his teeth in says that he is not aggressive or vicious so that’s fantastic.
Magnum was always really good at hiding her pain at the vets. She refused to respond to any of their poking and prodding even though we knew she was in pain. I learned to watch for subtle signs. I’d press where I thought it was hurting and watch to see if she would turn and “look” at me or to see if she curled her toes up. In her case both those subtle signs indicated that she was hurting.
PHEW! I’m glad to hear that! And it sounds like you had a real gem with Magnum. Was she a rescue?
That sounds pretty normal to me. Have you ever heard the expression, “let sleeping dogs lie”? It comes from this very thing. Once I awoke my mastiff from a snooze in the sunshine outside and he came up barking and growling and coming right at me. I just kept talking to him, it sank in after a moment or two that it was me and the look on his face was embarrassment, but he growled for a moment or so longer. It just being a hardwired reaction I guess.
This would be a great time to teach your child about respecting sleeping dogs because of this. She will need to learn to be dog savy.
I worked with my rescue Mastiff on the “nothing in life is free” program. NILIF. It is dog psychology at it’s best.
It sounds like Ivan has really had a tough start, yet despite his not really having a home or love he doesn’t have an aggressive demeanor, he is just trying to figure out how to be. And it is life or death for him, survival, yet he is being pretty sweet.
we agree with magnum and sammy…. gayle was a sound sleeper. she didn’t like to be startled or such when she was asleep. you’d get a quick head snap, and a ‘look that could kill’…kinda saying WTF are you thinking, i’m sleeping here!!!! no biting, no nipping, just a startling look. let sleeping dogs lie.
charon & spirit gayle
Elizabeth is right-on about working with your daughter. Since Ivan is a true mystery, you have no clue what is inside his head. The mastiff temperament is so sweet and gentle, but it is ridiculous to expect a dog with some of his visible problems to be predictable and reliable.
I think the best thing for you ALL is to get some training as a family when he’s stronger. Don’t wait too long, though. And I don’t mean obedience training (I don’t know if he needs that) but rather instruction from a canine behaviorist. They are well equipped to evoke responses from Ivan in a safe way, saving you possible heartbreak down the road.
What if Ivan has issues with, for instance, Barbie dolls? What if he lived in a home with little girls and Dad grabbed a Barbie doll off the table and beat Ivan in the head with it? It may sound funny, but you never know. I am speaking from experience. After 10 years, we are STILL evoking negative responses from Dakota. (Ask my kid about his ‘harmless’ red pirate pistol he bought at DisneyWorld.) We don’t wear baseball caps or sunglasses around Dakota and don’t carry brooms or mops in certain ways if he’s in the room. We also never pick up a garden hose. And that’s the short list. It’s crazy.
Shari
Shari
Excellent points. Any idea on how to find a behaviourist? We’re in a smallish town.
If I were in your position I would go on-line (I don’t know what area you are in) and look for a positive based dog trainer/behaviorist. You can also look up lots of dog training programs like NILIF that are rewarding the positives and ignoring the negatives and redirecting.
My mastiff Titan was very dominate, very independent. It took me a couple of times and trainers before I found a program that worked for us. I didn’t want him (he had been found starved, tied to a tree and burned) to have another negative association with people.
He too had triggers, teenage boys, hats, and things being dragged. A few times when he was healthier he would display dominate behavior like getting on the couch and not getting off. I found through out his life he would occasionally challenge my authority. I would redirect him, get him to work for a treat and I was back on top. I don’t know if challenging happens with all mastiffs, but since I am 5 ft tall and he was a foot taller than me and 50 lbs heavier, I had to maintain my leadership. It is really important when you have a dog that size that you always remain “top dog”. Your daughter too.
My boy ended up being the sweetest love bug. I could lie by him and snuggle, kiss his sweet face. It took time and trust though, and we had to build it from the ground up.
FightingforSammy – Great points. And I know what you mean, about not ‘wanting’ him. You’re amazing for saving Titan. Seriously? Starved, BURNED, tied to a tree? Sickening. I was talking about this with someone yesterday, and thinking, “But who ponies up the money for a Mastiff and then does this?” There aren’t that mant Mastiffs around are there? Ivan was found in the city of Atlanta. He’s the epitome of English Mastiff. I wonder if someone Googled “What is the biggest/heaviest breed” and that someone [meaning dope dealer or the like] wanted to make a Super Pit Bull and attempted to breed Ivan, and in the meantime just hacked off his ears to make him look mean. Who knows why he sheared off the paw.
I have had dominant dogs before [but that was before I had a child] and was able to successfully do as you did…become pack leader – but not before a bite or two. In fact, ChouChou, my lab mix [since died at age 14] bit me through the thigh…I was needing surgery on that leg, and when I had the pre op visit with the doctor, he said, “Well, your dog has already made an incision where I needed to cut, so we’ll just use his bite to go into the muscle since there’s no infection, and that way you won’t have another scar.” Who knew a rescue dog had a medical degree?
Thank you for saving Titan. You added good karma and made the world a better place.
Since you are a Mastiff person, let me ask you, is it normal for their eyes to constantly produce those sleepy goop things? I know about the drool, but I wipe his eyes clean about five times a day.
Thanks!
I agree with all above..We picked up our new Dalmatian Perdy who came with a ton of emotional baggage. She was returned 2x to a shelter because she nipped/bit. Once was a man and once a child. When we brought her home we could pet her head…sometimes.. but when you reached down and touched her leg or foot she would snap like an alligator. Got me once and my husband 2x (he’s on bloodthinners so it wasnt pretty). We enrolled her in obedience class and she has been getting much better. The trainer actually is a behavior consultant and he observed Perdy and her interaction between my husband and with me separately and gave us great insight on how we can help her. Please remember- “All dogs bite- thats how they eat”. Never become complacent- you do not know what this poor dog has been through. If he is startled by you or your daughter while sleeping or stressed he might have a “reaction” before he analyzes the situation….bite first-ask questions later. Ivan is probably greatful for the loving home you are giving him but you do not know what type of abuse he suffered in the past. Just think of it as post tramatic stress syndrome. Our Perdy bit a child because the kid was on the couch and fell on top of her. Not her fault, but she was beat, then surrendered to the pound. I was on the couch and jumped up fast to answer the phone and you would have thought I was going to come after her with a butcher knife. Just be careful and take things slow and I am sure all will work out.
Another bunch of great points…and it reminds me of my childhood Mastiff. I also fell on her while she had the femur bone of a cow and was happily engaged in tearing off the flesh and getting to the marrow. She was in a world of her own. I was about 11 and I tripped and fell face-to-face. She snapped and I still have a lengthwise scar from my nose to my lip. Now, you and I know that if a Mastiff [even this one who was a runt] wanted to really hurt me, today I would not have a face – literally.
But I knew I would be in load of trouble for my mistake, so I ran and hid so my parents would not see the blood. But it would not stop bleeding and I became afraid and had to go show that I was bitten. I can’t remember what punishment I got for bothering the dog [if you read my other post, you might have seen that my parents were trying to train her for protection and they were quite mentally ill].
Anyhow – Spirit Crystal’s mom has lovingly donated Crystal’s harness to Ivan, which should make it easier to get him around. His head is so heavy that the loss of his forelimb was quite bad luck. When we get the harness, we will look into training/behavior. I wonder if someplace like PetSmart PetCo is good enough?
KungFuNurse and Ivan
Yes, Magnum was very special. I had her from 8 weeks old. She grew up in a loving home. She always knew what it was to be loved and cared for unlike poor Ivan. Her biggest challenge was when my partner and I separated. She was 2 at the time. We continued to share custody until her death. Weird I know. I often feared that the movement between two homes would be bad for her but she continued to have the sweetest disposition. It was probably much harder on me than her. I hated it when she wasn’t home with me.
You might also find some guidance from the vets on a good behaviouralist.
There are parent agencies for trainers, and I think a great way for you to get some ideas is to post a question in the forums and ask for feedback. Tell people about where you are because we do have members in the Atlanta area. But see what kind of success folks here have had with different agencies and then you can go to that agency’s web site and do a search based on your location.
PetSmart may have a fine trainer, but I think for an introduction to this you really need to work privately with someone who has proven experience with both dominant breeds and abused dogs. You don’t want someone thinking they can “fix” Ivan and making it worse.
I took my monkeydog, Evelyn, to our PetSmart for training because it was the particular trainer I wanted. (The young woman was just plain gifted.) However, Dakota has worked with at least 3 trainers (I’ve lost count) and none has been able to “fix” his fearful and anxious behaviors. I’ve stopped searching for a trainer for him because he’s 10 and frumpy and settled. But if he were an unknown that just landed in my lap, I absolutely would keep looking.
Shari
Kungfu nurse,
🙂 Isn’t it interesting that sometimes the people who needed rescuing as children end up rescuing others as adults? I’m sorry you have been down that dark and twisted road too. I think we balance the scales when we use what we have learned for good, not to continue the cycle.
My boy never bit me, he just tried to intimidate me.
I was thinking about Ivan, along the same lines as you. Dealers and idiots have money, but not common sense.
I’m so glad Ivan and you found each other!
I know for me, I have no filter when it comes to an animal who has been abused. It brings me back to a place of helplessness, maybe in saving them we save ourselves… who knows? I like the karma thing though 🙂
My boy would get gooies in his eyes probably twice a day, I would have to wipe them. My newfy too. I wonder if your boy has ingrown eye lashes, or maybe it is a symptom of infection? It might just be normal for him because his eyes bag more than my mastiffs did…
I have thought about Ivan since I found his story, I have prayed for his recovery both physically and mentally. I hope you keep us updated often 🙂
Elizabeth
Thank you for your very kind and gentle words. You are right, I believe. If those of us can differentiate between the hate and anger we witnessed as children and not keep spinning it into the world, hopefully something gets balanced. I’m oversimplifying, of course, it’s not so easy. But I know it’s not in my make up to even understand cruelty for its own sake.
I’m going to update his story….Thank you for your good thoughts…we still need them!
P/S Do your big dogs have callouses on the heels, or ‘hocks’ and how do you prevent them from degrading the skin?